This is a really good interview. tl;dw is…
- their next game was going to be D&D, but they changed course and are doing something else now
- Vincke has a vision for “the one RPG to rule them all”, and each of their past three RPGs is a step closer to it
- the next game is not going to be that master vision but one step closer toward it, with their previous 3 RPGs proving out emergent design/multiplayer, story and consequence, and personal stories/performance capture, respectively
- Vincke would like to have this next game done in 3 years compared to BG3’s 6 year development cycle, but realistically expects 4 years, as long as there isn’t something like COVID-19 or a war in Ukraine to impede their progress
Yeah Wizards of the Coast isn’t the same company as when they signed the deal for BG3.
Smart of them to ditch the sinking ship that is D&D.
Sinking ship or not, word was that Wizards’ cut of BG3 was over $90M. $100M was the entire production cost of Baldur’s Gate 3. If you could fund an entire other massive video game for the cost of what you paid your partner for licensing, I’m sure anyone would be rethinking that deal. At this point, they don’t need the D&D license any more than BioWare needed the Star Wars license after KOTOR.
Thanks for expanding on my point.
They don’t need to be associated with WotC as they keep fucking up. Other RPG systems are becoming more and more popular.
Maybe they can partner with Paizo and make the next Pathfinder game, although I’d feel bad for Owlcat because their games have been great too.
For similar reasons as D&D, I doubt they’d license someone else’s system either, but I could be wrong.
True, the Divinity games were plenty of fun with their own system
I agree, but Piazo seems like much better partners. I wouldn’t be surprised if they’d let them make the game for no fee, just license out the rules to try to make the system more well known and popular. Pathfinder 2E is the better system without a doubt, but people are used to D&D5e, so having something out there to bring new people in would be huge for them.
I don’t know. The Owlcat games have a really deep system that Divinity and BG3 don’t have. Is that just because of the pathfinder ruleset? Or does Larian do better with simpler systems? I don’t have an answer to those questions. It might be cool to see a BG3 “version” of Pathfinder, but I think it would lose something in the process.
The visuals out of Larian run laps around Owlcat. But that comes at the expense of depth, as each asset takes more time to develop.
It’s two different design philosophies creating two very different kinds of experience. Owlcat makes more of a complex digital board game while Larian has muddled a strategy format with a dating sim.
Yup, exactly!
I’ve played Baldur’s Gate 1, Baldur’s Gate 2, and Planescape: Torment on 2nd edition rules. I’ve played Baldur’s Gate 3 on 5th edition rules and started playing tabletop 5th edition. I’ve played Pillars of Eternity 1, as I understand it largely inspired by 3.5 edition rules, and the first 10 hours of Pillars of Eternity 2, which I assume is now iterating on its own offshoot. I understand Pathfinder to largely be D&D 3.5. If that’s the case, and it’s in the ballpark of what Pillars of Eternity 1 is, I’ll take 5th edition any day of the week, but if you’d like to explain to me briefly why I might be wrong, I’m listening. Compared to how the 2e games and the Pillars games handle spells of different levels, 5e’s upcasting seems like a godsend, for instance.
I understand Pathfinder to largely be D&D 3.5.
Pathfinder 1E is essentially an improved D&D 3.5 that came to be the last time the licensing for modules became an issue. 2E is it’s own thing, and a large improvement.
One if the best changes for Pathfinder 2E is how actions work. D&D 5e has its a weird system of movement, action, bonus action, and then abilities that can add actions, but you can only cast one spell per turn regardless of if you have actions to use, except in some situations, and you can only use actions for some things sometimes, sometimes only once per turn. It’s just filled with exceptions because that’s not the original design intent but it’s tons of patches to make things function halfway decently.
Pathfinder 2E you have three actions per turn. Those can be used for anything always without exception. Every ability has a cost. For example moving is 1 action and can be done multiple times per turn, which makes things that displace enemies useful as they have to consume actions to get back into melee. Some spells may cost multiple actions, some very large ones can even require channeling multiple actions over several turns. It’s a very simple and intuitive system and you don’t need to remember thousands of exceptions like D&D5e.
Almost everything in Pathfinder 2E works like this. Things may be more complex to start with (which allows for choice), but you don’t need to remember tons of exceptions, so in total it’s simpler.
It doesn’t feel like a bunch of exceptions to me. It feels like you have a bonus action that’s basically always class-related, and everything else is an action. What you describe for Pathfinder doesn’t sound bad at all, but if some things cost multiple actions, that sounds like every bit the type of exception that you make 5e out to be full of. I don’t really find 5e to be unintuitive thus far such that I’m looking for another system to remedy it, I guess.
Games Workshop whores their IP out to almost anyone, and despite being crappy about their mini stuff, they seem rather fair for electronic games.
Because they know this is the only part of their business left. Which works for them.
I’m out of the loop, what has wotc been fucking up?
Hasbro pulled a bunch of typical big corp enshitification tactics with their licensing and digital assets over the last couple of years.
They’ve also tanked the used market for people. 2 decks I had that I paid way too much for aren’t worth the cardboard they are printed on now. (MTG)
Moral of the story: run proxies. Speculators and investors ruined the market, WotC just let them do it. (Also, fuck the secondary market and the reserve list. It’s cardboard. Some of us just want to play)
Those decks were for competitive play. They wouldn’t let me run proxies.
My moral: Don’t give WotC anymore money, ever. Fuck 'em.
Wait what happened?
Reprinting some things, neglecting to reprint others, power creeping the stuff they did reprint out of the game, banning some stuff that was too powerful while printing other stuff that’s just as good for the same reasons. You know, standard card game stuff.
They do ~6B a year and clear about a billion, so that’s actually like 10% of their profit which is a lot for a company that big – wow!
any more than BioWare needed the Star Wars license after KOTOR.
Glances at Starfield
Maybe not your strongest point
Bioware didn’t make Starfield - that was Bethesda. Maybe you were thinking of Anthem? And fair point there.
I was talking about how the lack of Star Wars license didn’t stop Mass Effect from being even more successful than KOTOR, yes.
Yeah, I’ve been moving over to Call of Cthulhu with my tabletop group. I find it far more enjoyable when the players are more careful about dying or worse.
I really like the way that he thinks, with each game being a way to learn new systems / implement new tools / increase the studio’s knowledge and skill. Such a great way to take on projects - it ensures that each game brings something new to the table, and it puts you in an even better position to tackle the next project.
My only request for the next game is: please don’t have it start with the player imprisoned on a ship and for the ship to be attacked by monsters so the player can use the chance to escape into a deadly situation only to be rescued at the last second by an unknown powerful being before waking up on a beach. Twice is enough, thanks.
What if you’re imprisoned on a cart and attacked by a dragon? Or just released from prison on a boat and dropped off in a swampy beach town? The fantasy RPG genre requires starting as a convict or prisoner, you see.
Just once I’d like to start a D&D video game like a real D&D game: in a tavern trying to get wasted and then someone barges in saying something about goblins or some shit, and I’m about six deep so I say, “Fuck it, we ball.”
I love starting in a tavern and having some run in in a panic screaming “UNDEEEEEEAD!!” and just drop a horde on the table. No time to think, no time to explain. The story starts later, right now you have to fight for your life together with whomever is able to hold at least a table leg.
Allow me to introduce you to Solasta: Crown of the Magister. It was the OTHER CRPG releases based on the DnD 5e system. Much smaller budget and team, but a pretty faithful recreation.
Including the fact that the game opens in a tavern with your party throwing back beer one of them might refer to as a donkey piss (depending on which personality archetype you selected for them) while they wait for their quest sponsor to show up and tell them what’s going on. In the meantime, each character introduces themselves to the others by discussing the adventure they had on the way to the present location (as an excuse to run through some tutorials). Doesn’t get much more classic DnD start than that.
Hell yeah
Yep, that was a good game too. Different focus, and a fairly linear story. Part of what made Baldur’s Gate 3 so good was of course the amazing characters and character development. Solasta is missing that, but still a very solid and complete DnD game.
For sure. My impression is that to focus on character work in the same way as BG3 (i.e. voice acting, mocap, cinematics, etc) would have been an impossibility for the studio that made Solasta. I would guess they did not have the financial support to make that happen.
Personally, I think of it as being of a piece with the old Infinity Engine games. There was the Baldurs Gate series, which, in classic CRPG fashion, was all about player choice and character. But, side by side with those games, you had the Icewind Dale series, which was almost completely devoid of the story focus of the BG games and entirely focused on dungeon crawling and seeing how far the ruleset can be pushed.
I disagree, and now think Larian should start every game like this. Next Divinity? Pirate ship. Games Workshop has them make a game? Escape from a Citadel.
Every Tad says “ah shit, here we go again…”
They could turn that into a running theme, like how every Elder Scrolls protagonist is a prisoner to start with…
But Divinity already has a long history and so does Baldur’s Gate so…ehh, doesn’t fit in quite as well. Maybe with a new IP they make it a tradition for.
Every Tad says “ah shit, here we go again…”
It’s canonically always the same Tav repeatedly getting dragged into these weird “save the world” situations.
Are we just playing high fantasy Quantum Leap?
As long as my journey starts on a beach, I don’t care what came before.
What’s the other game? Because if it’s not Arcanum we have a 3rd.
Something Bigger Is Coming
Baldur’s Gate 5?
Larian Dating Sim 2025
That’s just BG3
No one will even hug me. This game sucks, too much like real life.
Nah, theyve secretly acquired yandere simulator
The search for Baldur’s Gate 4.
Builders Gate: the Flamethrower!
(The kids really like this one)
They could get on with BG3 = DOS3 thing and just go ahead with Divinity: Original Sin 4 for their next title.
How It Feels To Chew 5 Gum, The Experience.
Baldur’s Gate 360
Baldur’s Fence
I’m, like, oof? History repeating itself much?
There was this little RPG company, BioWare, that made this little known game called… uh… Baldur’s Gate or something. Then they made Baldur’s Gate II. And all was fine. And then they said “you know what, we should do something really cool and innovative and creative!” …And they did! They made Neverwinter Nights. And Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro was a real drag in the process, wanting them so many compliance meetings regarding the content and canon and game mechanics. So Bioware was like “OK this is the absolute last time we work with this kind of nitpickers, we’ll create our own fantasy RPG setting and system.” …and that’s how Dragon Age came about.
WotC/Hasbro isn’t any easier to work with these days, that’s for sure. Except this time, even the tabletop fans know that.
Hopefully Larian gets to eventually make the epicest dream game they can and, uh, not get bought out by EA or something.
Kinda backwards with Larian as they already made original IPs before BG3. Which were critical hits already.
The divinity games definitely felt inspired by DND. I’ve even been able to convince friends (including some who don’t play video games at all) to pick it up because of how similar it feels to tabletop. Larian was a natural choice for BG3 and I’m convinced that was part of the vision with their early work
Whether they get bought out is up to the owner(s) right? If they refuse, then that’s that.
I think Larian is already partly owned by someone (Tencent?) so EA is unlikely
Yes, despite what Larian wants you to believe, 30% of the company was sold to Tencent years ago to raise more money for BG3. Afaik Danny O’Dwyer dug that up from the irish business register because Larian never even made a statement about it. Instead they keep pointing out how privately owned they are and that there is nothing to worry about.
BG3 was a massive success, but I wonder how much of that cake is left after 450 employees, Bioware, WotC and Tencent got their pieces of that. If they really want to release a much bigger game in half the time, they’ll need to tripple their employees which will absolutely explode spendings. They have nothing else in the works until then, no mobile game cash cow or big merch sales to keep them afloat. The only way to generate more money when production costs will inevitably exceed expectations is… to sell more of themselves.
Divinity 2 mechanics > BG3 even though BG3 is obviously the ultimate masterpiece. Pumped to see what they do
If we are taking about battle mechanics I hope they come up with a new system all together. I think both the OS2 and BG3/DnD mechanics were serviceable, and it was fun to play out fights. But neither was much of a challenge and fights didn’t often feel like unique puzzles.
Yeah – I just mean their ability to make a system for video games is better than paper adaptation
I enjoyed BG3 more than any game since Witcher: Wild Hunt. Do you think Divinity 2 would be for me? I am looking for a new long play game.
Absolutely.
Thank you. I will check it out.
yes
If you are going to play Divinity 2, start with Divinity 1
They both have differences in mechanics, but play about the same. The only main difference is that Divinity is only 2 player, while Divinity 2 is 4 player like BG3
Also, the mechanics of both Divinity games are build around it being video games. Meaning it is a better experience. In comparison with BG3, which was build as a TTRPG and only converted to a video game.
The only things I miss with Divinity are the cutscenes. Otherwise they would be as perfect (or even better) than BG3.
Thank you. I will check it out.
I’m gonna disagree with that other commenter. I’d recommend starting with DOS2 before 1. DOS2 is much more refined and generally less annoying to play. And they’re separate stories, so nothing in 2 would spoil the experience of 1
But they’re both good games worth playing, so don’t let that indecision stop you from trying either
Thank you for another perspective. I might just jump in.
Also know you can play 2 player local natively built into the story in both games so if you have a roommate or SO it’s a really fun time!
I like the idea of local coop game play. Online gaming not really my thing.
Yes. I personally prefer the combat of Divinity 2, but overall they are very, very similar games
I’m not sure I agree. DoS2 mechanic are cool, but the combat becomes way to chaotic for my liking. Also you do one mistake and now half your party is dead and the other half is on fire.
That was exactly what I loved about DoS2
That’s fair. To each their own.
I know Lemmy hates it, but I really think AI could play a core part in the future of multiple choice RPGs.
I’m not saying let it be free and build the entire game, but if you train a model to be a certain character and add limitations so it doesn’t go too wild, then that could be massive imo.
Still have a human storyline and imagination behind the game, but use AI like the tool it is for certain parts.
Seriously? You play a game like Baldur’s Gate 3 and your first thought was “damn, this game could really benefit from having less handcrafted, professionally written dialogue”
I speak to enough dipshits at work spewing word salad, this is what I wanted with my escapism, people who follow the fucking conversation not some AI bot resume filling buzzwords about the plot.
It can have both.
You could have a fully man made storyline, but then expand the world in a way that is currently impossible.
Even if you train a model for main characters/stories, it would still be built off the work of writers, the model would simply be the character they’ve written.
I think the way video game devs/people are (from what I can see from outside) they are well poised to realize someone making an LLM or a finetune or whatever you want to call it – that produces master level dialogue/stories/whatever is (will be) a skill just like storytelling/writing is.
If I were a JRR Tolkien or Herbert with a universe in my mind, it would be so much more pleasing to make an engine that generates anything from that world that to just write out a few stories from it.
Sounds cool to me
If I were a JRR Tolkien or Herbert with a universe in my mind, it would be so much more pleasing to make an engine that generates anything from that world that to just write out a few stories from it.
Tolkien was a linguist with a deep fondness for nature and spirituality. He loved creating languages and building beautiful, natural worlds around them. I can’t imagine a single person who would be less enamored by the idea of machinistic language devices that people use to “generate everything”. I think he would be either bored by this possibility or deeply disturbed.
Tolkien also had a deep disdain for industrialism and automation, which is what inspired Isengard in the books. When he says Saruman has “a mind of metal and wheels”, it’s implied that the reader understands why this is a way of saying that Saruman is evil. He definitely wouldn’t be a fan of MindOfMetalAndWheelsGPT.
Perhaps but I can’t see anyone who is interested in creating and communicating fake worlds eschewing the idea too much. If you make a fake world, there’s no way you could ever ‘get it all out’ since you’re just one guy. This would open up that possibility to make a world bigger than yourself and what you can get out of your brain
E: Here’s a long worldbuilding thread about it – https://www.reddit.com/r/worldbuilding/comments/186cspn/your_thoughts_on_the_use_of_ai_for_worldbuilding/
Seems mixed.
If I were a JRR Tolkien or Herbert with a universe in my mind, it would be so much more pleasing to make an engine that generates anything from that world that to just write out a few stories from it.
One of the foundational tenets of good writing is that worldbuilding is just masturbatory unless it serves the story. You don’t create a cool world and work your way backward into a story. You create a great story and craft a world around it which supports the story you’re trying to tell. The stories are the thing that have value, not the setting or the lore.
Telling a great story is a completely orthogonal skill to worldbuilding, and it requires creativity, emotion, and authorial intent. Star Wars and Harry Potter are both dogshit at worldbuilding, but they’re both some pretty rad stories. Avatar: the Legend of Korra is set in one of the best fantasy worlds ever created and it was a very mediocre story.
Given that is the opposite of what Tolkien did i think you are overstating your case to say it’s a foundational tenet.
Not the opposite at all. Tolkien didn’t know what the One Ring was when he wrote about Bilbo finding it in the Hobbit. Good worldbuilding is iterative. Tolkien went way too obsessive for LOTR and a lot of the worldbuilding he did was purely for his own pleasure rather than serving the story.
Keep in mind he didn’t try to publish The Silmarillion while he was alive. And also that the vast majority of LOTR fans don’t give a shit about stuff in the Silmarillion if it isn’t also relevant to the story of LOTR.
Tolkien spent years creating a fictional world and languages before even deciding to write a novel.
Strange, because that is the opposite of every D&D game ever.
The story gets written at the table, at which point the world building should have already been mostly created.
I’m a DM, and I can tell you that as fun as worldbuilding is, no information about your world is real until players learn and remember it. And if you try to loredump on them, they won’t actually remember stuff.
Worldbuilding is fun, but it’s also masturbatory; it’s only fun for the DM until the game’s story makes it matter for everyone else.
I agree with everything you said.
However, fiction world building and game world building are hugely different.
Are games not fiction?
I should have said “literature”.
In the future I think it’s a really viable option to create more immersive and interactive games. The technology is pretty far away though, not to mention I don’t think most machines could handle the load while also running a game. It’s at best a dream right now, but a pretty interesting idea for 15 years from now.
That’s a pretty big assumption about where the tech is going. In my experience it’s really stupid to try to predict what tech will look like more than a year or two into the future, let alone over a decade.
You only get one BG3 every lifetime though – It was how I thought games would be when I was a kid almost perfectly, but it is the only one…
You only get one BG3 every lifetime though
- Dragon Age Origins
- Mass Effect 1-3
- Fallout New Vegas
All came out in my lifetime and my lifetime isn’t even halfway over.
None of those hit for me like BG3 – It’s the perfect CRPG game.
I would have said the same with Divinity 1&2 before BG3 came out
Games keep improving and we will get an even better CRPG in a couple of years that is “even more perfect” than BG3
Maybe now, but everyone was afraid to fund 100MM BG3 because they thought no one wanted CRPG and they want Fortnite or whatever. Hopefully Larian spawns more people who actually care about their users instead of just greed
Frankly I think that’s just recency bias. It’s new so it feels better. Before BG3 came out, most people agreed DA:O was the perfect CRPG, or Mass Effect, and just look at the sheer number of video essays on YouTube praising the quality of F:NV.
New games come along and old games look paltry in comparison. It doesn’t mean the older ones are actually worse. But you’ve had decades to enjoy DA:O, while BG3 still feels like it has secrets to uncover. It still is unexplored territory, and that’s exciting.
Personally I think that once the dust settles, it will be clear that, apart from limitations due to when each was made, these games are all equally 10/10 games in their own way. It’s not as though BG3 is without flaws. And it’s still actively being worked on.
But not me – None of them have ever reached my bar except for BG3 – I care less about video game stories and more about mechanics/freedom of choice to be fair
Chrono Trigger FF3 SNES (FF6) Final Fantasy Tactics FF7
I don’t know what that guy was talking about. There have been so many games released with amazing stories. It’s just the ghost of Jack Welch has slithered into gaming and rather than make great titles we get microtransaction shit games.
That statement in itself is quite sad, when one of the reasons everyone called it out as being an amazing game is because it was huge, well crafted, and made by a company that actually seemed to give a shit.
I don’t say this to diminish their achievements, because I’m 80 hours in and still not done, but it’s a spectacularly low bar that Larian absolutely launched themselves over. At a time where companies seem to be scraping the bottom of the barrel, Larian did the exact opposite, and reaped what should be the most obvious of awards (do good work, get lots of money).
I agree – that’s why I never saw the games I dreamed of – Greed. Not some lack of skill, ideas or ability to execute
Not less handcrafted, but AI enhanced on top of the already excellent written dialogue.
If I want my entire BG3 gameplay to be about grilled cheese, then I would be able to when talking to every NPC while still getting the excellent story about mindflayers. The cheese is just on top.
Unless I see major advancements in the technology, I think AI will be a great tool in the toolbelt for developers operating on lower budgets, but Baldur’s Gate 3 is going to have people expecting the best from Larian’s games going forward, and that’s going to mean human writing and human performances. I think without those major advancements in the technology, it’s going to come off as lesser quality.
I agree, I just think those major advancements will happen.
AI isn’t going to be the answer for everything, but I think it will have a massive impact on video games, in both positive and negative ways.
No doubt some companies are going to be putting out absolute dogshit AI games.
I have used AI to RP some stuff (don’t ask), and while the higher end models, and even the better self hosted models are really good at answering in a way that makes sense and works in context, it is pretty hard to make them do anything, new, interesting, or unexpected, without prompting it specifically.
Nothing that I’ve seen playing around with LLMs makes me think that a well-written work of fiction could be improved by including them, unless there is a significant leap in capability.
And this is ignoring all the discussion about LLMs and copyright/stolen content.
100% the future. Like has anyone put all the billion pages of lore from TES into a GPT finetune? Surely that would make better dialogue than HALT! for the 900000000 time right?
I think AI Dungeon proved that you could have a great Gen AI-driven campaign experience, but the novelty wore out really fast after it was used up as streamer bait and the ethical considerations are just too much of a risk.
If nobody could be bothered to make the thing, I can’t be bothered to play with the thing.
Next one ditches all the filler and just goes straight to shagging a series of elves, demons, were-bears, cthulhus, etc. One after another, there are so many cthulhus to shag and you are the chosen one.
They’re making high budget Corruption of Champions (or Trials in Tainted Space.) Yes, CoC or TiTS.
Spelljammer maybe?
Half life 3?
It’ll be legally distinct Double Quarter Life 3
Brilliant. It would allow for having HL3 while also not forcing Valve to make a 3rd thing.
Sick, looking forward to Lord of the Rings 4
Bro!
warhammer pls
Bladurs door 1
Praying for a new Kotor
No. I love the KOTOR games and hate Larian’s turn-based combat gameplay.
Please PLEASE fix the inventory mechanics/design
If I can’t make transgendered characters they are dead to me
My guy, disguise self is right there. You can change your gender all day long for a first level spell slot
bad ass
deleted by creator
I thought you could already. I mean you can select your build and voice and genitals all independent of eachother. Not sure why they’d go back on that.
that’s what im saying, brother
Oh I see right on
I wonder if Larian does something new with the Disco Elysium folks (since in that PMG video they were mentioned) instead of more Divinity.
